reddragdiva: (Default)
[personal profile] reddragdiva

LiveJournal: I have been alerted that DreamWidth's OpenID login for LiveJournal users is crappy, annoying and frequently just doesn't fucking work. I'm seeking more info for a proper bug report. If you're an LJ user, please try to comment on the DW version of this post, and if it's a goddamn pain in the arse and/or doesn't work then comment anon with how. Feel free to be vituperative, just be detailed!

Basically, DW needs an option especially for LiveJournal users, as (a) the overwhelming majority of the OpenID commenters are coming from LJ, (b) "OpenID", "identity URL" and so on are technical jargon terms no-one should need to know just to comment and (c) this is actually breaking people's social networks for real. So far the OpenID system is a DW fail.

The thing about the LiveJournal engine is it's ridiculously easy to use. People who can't work computers can participate with huge success, and geeks don't get annoyed. The OpenID requirement is a Linux 1998 solution: tell the user to hand-dig a latrine, then hand them a toilet seat to prop on top, and honestly think you've done something user-friendly.

The obvious provider-neutral solution: if someone is automatically crossposting to another site, people will be coming from there — so include said sites as express options for commenting. A box something like "LiveJournal™ user: [_______] LiveJournal will confirm your identity." Accept a username, a username with hyphens, a URL, anything unambiguous. IT HAS TO BE RIDICULOUSLY EASY.

Can any of the DW developers reading this see any problems with this idea? Because the problem is real and it's breaking my network, and I'm really unhappy about that. Inadvertent lockin is just as damaging as deliberate lockin.

Perth: Plane ticket booked through Expedia, £789 return. (cheapflights.co.uk is a nightmare of bullshit and their £480 fares are all £850 when you try to actually buy one. Buggre thatte.) I am arriving in Perth at 1:15am Wednesday and staying at my sister's in Buttfuck, Nowhere. (Jandakot, to be precise.) THEY ONLY HAVE DIALUP! I'll post a phone number locked when I have it.

Just in time to visit, I've discovered The Worst Of Perth. It is 100% accurate and aesthetically perfect in its subtle horror. As Midnight Oil so eloquently put it: "Too much of sunshine too much of sky, but just enough to make you want to cry." I can hardly believe J. G. Ballard never actually visited the place.

Work: I spent the last two days on CruiseControl again. (It's a continuous-build system — every time a developer checks something in, it does a complete build. Resource-intensive, but oh so convenient.) The process of moving from one build server to another is like building a 1:1 scale duplicate of a full-size Titanic built from toothpicks and spit, using toothpicks and spit. And moving the build for apps that date back to "hmm, how do we build an app on this thing? Let's try this really bad idea" and have not changed because they're really popular and quite lucrative. And not only finding where the bodies are buried but producing a full audit report before reinterring them.

Builds are only slightly faster on the T5120 than on the old V210 (CPUs are about the same speed, 8GB memory instead of 2GB), but 32 THREADS NO WAITING makes everything ridiculously more convenient. It's also fun starting all the builds at once and watching the load average go through the roof while actual CPU load is about 20%. The developers are also enormously happy about the possibility of parallelising unit tests, which means the most heavily test-suited builds (the ones that are also most important because the apps make us a ton o' cash) might take less than fifteen minutes to turn around.

So us sysadmins are looking like stars to everyone and boss's boss is happy with having spent £10k on the box in question, and that's what really counts.

Party! I am sitting here with dye on my hair. Tonight I am going to Reptile. See me there before I go away for two weeks! Not that I've been out in, uh, four months. Pose for the camera, darlings!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 03:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] megabitch.livejournal.com
test comment as requested

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 04:08 pm (UTC)
pseudomonas: "pseudomonas" in London Underground roundel (Default)
From: [personal profile] pseudomonas
Thinking about cross-posting and OpenID, there's no reason that links to the DW posts shouldn't have a ?remote-site=livejournal.com parameter, such that people following the link are explicitly given the option of entering their LJ (or whichever remote site it is) username.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rasilon-x.livejournal.com
OpenID: Technogibberish, but so are a lot of things. People should only need told once, but telling them would be useful.

Ubuntu changes: Meh. Hadn't even noticed...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 05:55 pm (UTC)
damned_colonial: Convicts in Sydney, being spoken to by a guard/soldier (Default)
From: [personal profile] damned_colonial
Adding an option so it says:

* Anon
* Livejournal user
* OpenID
* DW user

... when you comment seems pretty damn sensible to me. You should suggest it in [site community profile] dw_suggestions. I bet it'd get implemented pretty promptly.

Wrt whether the existing OpenID implementation works -- about a year ago I went through it myself to understand how it worked, and it appeared to work fine for me. I've also started using it in the reverse direction (logging into DW with my LJ openid to comment) which I believe is the same codebase, and that worked fine too.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-15 09:04 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 05:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damned-colonial.livejournal.com
And here's a test comment using openid.

What I did:

Click "Reply"
Click "More options" (since I'm already logged in -- a logged out user wouldn't need to)
Click the radio button next to "OpenID"
Type in "damned-colonial.livejournal.com"
Click "Post comment"

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 06:13 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
People have enough trouble remembering their USER IDS, much less an "Identity URL". People have further had five years of being indoctrinated "NEVER EVER PUT YOUR PASSWORD INTO ANOTHER SITE", and for good reason, and this smells the same even if it technically isn't. Someone needs to invent kerberos for browsers.

OpenID test response

Date: 2010-03-13 09:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sharplittlteeth.livejournal.com
Right. This is my test post from OpenID.

Seems straight-forward enough so far, but I guess I won't really know until I hit Post Comment...

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 09:20 pm (UTC)
trixieleitz: sepia-toned drawing of a woman in Jazz Age costume, relaxing with a glass of wine. Text: Trixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] trixieleitz
Clicked the reply link on your LJ entry footer
Entered the URL of my LJ where it says Identity URL, left the Log in? tickybox unchecked
Typed some stuff
Clicking Post Comment nnnnnnnnnnnow

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 09:22 pm (UTC)
sloot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sloot
I've tried crossposting from DW to LJ, removing comments on my LJ, and encouraging people to login to DW with the following footer on my LJ posts...

[comment count image] comments on the [a ref="http://sloot.dreamwidth.org/1519482.html"]original Dreamwidth post[/a]. [a href="http://sloot.dreamwidth.org/1519482.html?mode=reply"]Comment there[/a] after [a href="http://www.dreamwidth.org/openid/"]logging in[/a] via [a href="http://openid.net/"]OpenID[/a].

I think it's as much help as I can give in one line. I have the added challenge that all my posts are friendlocked, but I imported my friends from DW to LJ. I've had techie and non-techie friends complain about the process.

Maybe the problem is that we expect DW to properly integrate with LJ.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 09:37 pm (UTC)
trixieleitz: sepia-toned drawing of a woman in Jazz Age costume, relaxing with a glass of wine. Text: Trixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] trixieleitz
following up my screened OpenID comment:
After clicking Post Comment:
Got the verify identity screen - clicked Yes, just this time
Got an error message due to NoScript blocking XSS - allowed an unsafe reload
Got a confirmation message that the comment had been posted screened

Thoughts:
"Identity URL" - well I know what that is, but one simple improvement would be to change that string so that it is more intuitive what to put there. Can't think what, though.

Maybe some of the problems people are having are due to XSS blocks - I don't know enough to see if there's any DW-side way around that.

Are OpenID users getting confused because of the screening? Is this just one of those user-ed things?

In the meantime, can the cross-posting DW user make life easier for their network by editing their cross-posting footer with more detailed instructions? Not saying you should - I agree that this process should be as easy as commenting on LJ - just thinking that it might apply some duct-tape to your network in the meantime.

(OK to unscreen both of these)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 09:40 pm (UTC)
trixieleitz: sepia-toned drawing of a woman in Jazz Age costume, relaxing with a glass of wine. Text: Trixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] trixieleitz
(OK to unscreen both of these)

haha, I originally tried to post a reply to my OpenID comment with my OpenID, and of course it wouldn't let me. But I forgot to edit that last line :P

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 06:57 am (UTC)
jld: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jld
In the meantime, can the cross-posting DW user make life easier for their network by editing their cross-posting footer with more detailed instructions?

Yes, they can — the footer template is completely editable by the user.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 09:02 am (UTC)
pseudomonas: "pseudomonas" in London Underground roundel (Default)
From: [personal profile] pseudomonas
It used to have an bug where it'd be truncated when saved between uses. Is that fixed now?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 10:39 pm (UTC)
the_axel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_axel
Let's see if this works.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 10:41 pm (UTC)
the_axel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_axel
But of course, I have a DW account, and wouldn't have logged out of it. Let's try again.

Test

Date: 2010-03-13 10:50 pm (UTC)
the_axel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_axel
Test

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-13 10:51 pm (UTC)
the_axel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] the_axel
1) Having an example by the login prompt would be immensely helpful:
OpenID (will be screened if not on Access List)
Identity URL:

e.g. username.livejournal.com
2) NoScript hates the idea of validating the OpenID because it sees it a a potential cross-site scripting attempt. It creates a little bar at the top of the screen that is easily missed, and the override command is very non-intuitive. I wouldn't be surprised if that's a significant contributer to folks giving up.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 12:57 am (UTC)
vampwillow: (coils)
From: [personal profile] vampwillow
I see nothing wrong with moving the buttons around on the next Ubuntu release. I already use KDE, Gnome, OSX, Windows, Solaris and each have their own idiosyncrasies.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 01:24 am (UTC)
rbarclay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rbarclay
Hmm, Perth.

I missed that on my .au-trip a couple years ago, due to the sheer distance to Everything Else.

But in the various descriptions I read it's always depicted as a smallish town, I'd have guesstimated 40-80k inhabitants - and now I read 1.6m, which's nearly as much as Vienna. WTF?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 01:45 am (UTC)
tetsab: Extreme close up of a block of ice with some light reflected off it (Default)
From: [personal profile] tetsab
Doot

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 07:24 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
not logged into DW but am logged in to LJ
clicked on reply
chose second option 'OpenID'. This option does not show how to log in. i.e. what user-name or the syntax of the user-name so being a 'dumb' user I enter my normal LJ user-name only i.e. 'mr_e_cat'
The message I receive is "No claimed id: no_identity_server: The provided URL doesn't declare its OpenID identity server."
This is not a helpful message.
I now try 'mr_e_cat@livejournal.com'
Same error "No claimed id: no_identity_server: The provided URL doesn't declare its OpenID identity server." Again this doesn't explain the problem.
I now try 'mr-e-cat@livejournal.com' and get the same message again.
I give up in disgust.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-15 02:11 am (UTC)
trixieleitz: sepia-toned drawing of a woman in Jazz Age costume, relaxing with a glass of wine. Text: Trixie (Default)
From: [personal profile] trixieleitz
Assumption number one: that the DW translation system is still broadly similar to the LJ translation system.
Assumption number two: that I actually understand the LJ translation system well enough to be right about this.

With the above in mind, it seems to me that, on a technical level, it would be very straightforward for anyone with the appropriate site text translation privilege to edit the error message strings to something helpful. And edit the IdentityURL prompt string similarly. It wouldn't even need a code push. (viz LJ's recent genderfail, which appeared to be created via the same mechanism.)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-15 04:23 am (UTC)
mr_e_cat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mr_e_cat
This is what makes this so very annoying. It's not difficult to just inform the user how to log in using openid. A simple example is all that is needed.

test

Date: 2010-03-14 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frou-frou.livejournal.com
I haven't succeeded in commenting on DW but thought I'd try again.

Re: test

Date: 2010-03-15 12:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] frou-frou.livejournal.com
It was pretty straightforward but of course, I have no way of knowing if you've responded to me unless I come back and check here - which luckily I did. It's a big improvement though. Not sure why it wouldn't let me comment (or even see) other posts for other users.

Re: test

Date: 2010-03-15 09:25 pm (UTC)
cesy: "Cesy" - An old-fashioned quill and ink (Default)
From: [personal profile] cesy
You can turn on email comment notifications if you validate your email address at http://www.dreamwidth.org/manage/settings/

Re: test

Date: 2010-03-15 11:47 pm (UTC)
zvi: Mesmerized sheep dreaming 'Dreamcult' (Dreamcult)
From: [personal profile] zvi
You want to confirm your e-mail address. That way, you get e-mails when someone replies to you. Also, you will be able to comment on entries which don't allow anonymous commenters.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-14 05:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] emarkienna.livejournal.com
Openid works fine for me, but i agree it has user friendliness issues. Another unobvious thing about openid is access / handling friends only posts - i.e., that dw ppl have to add your openid 'profile' to their access list. A particular gotcha is when someone crossposts FO, which one of their lj friends can read on lj, but then that lj user clicks the dw link to comment and doesn't have permission to see that entry. Maybe dw needs an option for ppl to easily import their lj flist to dw, adding the openids?

Re: test

Date: 2010-03-15 09:27 pm (UTC)
cesy: "Cesy" - An old-fashioned quill and ink (Default)
From: [personal profile] cesy
DW already has that option.

Test

Date: 2010-03-14 10:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] blog.flowerysong.com
This is using that OpenID thing.

If this works, I blame it on the fact that I run my own OpenID provider and know exactly what an identity URL is.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-03-15 03:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] damerell.livejournal.com
I am a comment via openID