Whither gothdar?

[reddragdiva]

Paul Hodkinson (who reads this, but if he wants to reveal his journal that's up to him ;-) says in his book Goth (this is not an exact quote) that goths tend to spend a lot of time in the subculture ... so if you say you're not a goth but you spend quite a lot of time there and look like one, you're a f*cking g*th.

From the gothdar poll, my new rule of thumb might be: if you know what "gothdar" is without further explanation, you're probably a goth. If it's always on involuntarily, you're definitely a goth, or at least a pervy goth fancier. (ronebofh?)

Do your eyes spot goths before you've consciously noticed them? Does someone trigger your gothdar then you have to try to work out what set it off and whether it was correct?

The obvious question is: why gothdar? Why is it always on? What does it do for (or against) you?

Comments

[sciamachy.livejournal.com]

Does anyone need gothdar? I mean, you can tell a goth generally by looking at them. Unless you mean at work, where people aren't allowed to dress normally but have to wear "business casual" gear (i.e. old guy clothes). But TBH I don't socialise with my work mates because I work 30 miles from where I live.

[reddragdiva]

Do your eyes spot goths before you've consciously noticed them? Does someone trigger your gothdar then you have to try to work out what set it off and whether it was correct?

[sciamachy.livejournal.com]

What, a feeling in the force, as if a thousand souls cried out in terror, and then were silenced?

[reddragdiva]

No, that's when I run out of Gudangs and have to smoke Djarums.

[sinibar.livejournal.com]

gothdar I think is the ability to tell a goth from a non-goth despite the clothes that they are wearing.

It's the ability to say "Yeah, I know he's wearing nice boots, skin tight PVC trousers and a Sisters T-shirt, but I'm just not convinced he knows the German bit from Marian".

That ability can keep you away from some very tedious social interaction or even social error.

[prettyoctopussy.livejournal.com]

Dude! This is so true and the often neglected flip-side of the gothdar.

In San Francisco where a lot of pervy goth fanciers go to the goth clubs to pick up goths and are good at costuming, it is an invaluble instininct if one wishes to avoid bedding someone who might think that Closer is not an appropriately romantic album to snuggle to.

[reddragdiva]

If the boots are wrong, they're wrong.

[themadcatlady.livejournal.com]

I get that all the time, but I don´t know what triggers it. Here in Puerto del Carmen it´s "tourist city", but there are occasionally goth couples who come to holiday here too, and I seem to just know they´re there before I even look at the crowds of tourists.

[poggs.livejournal.com]

My gothdar allows me to spot spookies at a distance of 300m. In Tenby.

[rosefox]

I know what "gothdar" is and I checked all the "wouldn't be goth if you put me in black lipstick, silver eyeliner, and a mesh bodysuit covered in plastic spiders" boxes.

[themadcatlady.livejournal.com]

I can spot a goth in a crowd of 10000 people. Especially at things like Méra Luna. ;)

I wholeheartedly admit I´m a goth, and I´m proud of what and who I am.

There. That was easy to admit, wasn´t it?

Any person that looks like a goth or has a goth aura without the external looks and says they´re not a goth, are just in denial or simply a sad excuse for a real goth! ;)

[weatherpixie.livejournal.com]

Work this one out, only non goths think I'm a goth ;)

[reddragdiva]

I used to have alternadar or indiedar in the late '80s, in the same way and for much the same reasons — perhaps you're triggering that.

[grega.livejournal.com]

My gothdar tells me who to despise and socially avoid in an instant... bloody goths!

[yaruar.livejournal.com]

"bloody goths" does that involve lining them all up in a row and running them over wiht a tank?

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

what, like this?

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

I'm a goth, and I don't care who knows it. I'm also sick of all the whining from ppl who are goth but claim not to be, but that's another topic altogether.

Gothdar is, for me, a constant undercurrent of awareness of the presence of my kind of people. It's a sort of survival mechanism, as people I really connect with are far and few between. When one crossed my path, I'm always intrigued.

It does nothing against me, as far as I can tell.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

I'm a goth, and I don't care who knows it. I'm also sick of all the whining from ppl who are goth but claim not to be, but that's another topic altogether.

preach on. i too am quite happy to be a goth. anyone who doesn't notice this is clearly on crack. and frankly, if they're "not a goth" why do they wear goth clothes, listen to goth music and hang around with a load of goths?!

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

Exactly! If it looks like a goth and hangs out with goths, it is a goth despite all whinging to the contrary.

I also have no patience with all the "the goth scene/culture/whatever is making me unhappy/unproductive/unpopular/whatever" bullshit that so many people spew these days. It's a weak and pathetic excuse, imo.

[h-i-p-p-y.livejournal.com]

I have Gothdar but I refuse to belong to the goth culture. Anymore. And haven't a while. It feels good to just be me. For the first time in my life.

[reddragdiva]

That means you're at the second stage of goth.

DENIAL - "I am so not a goth"
ANGER - "Fuck you, I'm sick of goths!"
BARGAINING - "I wear these New Rocks because they are comfortable, and black happens to be slimming on me"
DEPRESSION - "Oh Ghod, normals actually suck worse"
ACCEPTANCE - "Listen, kid, I see gother things than you after my morning dump"

[50-ft-queenie.livejournal.com]

You are brilliant.

That is all.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

you rock my world.

[cyberpunkgrrl.livejournal.com]

this is beginning to sound like my Identity and Popular Culture module I did last year ( i wrote an assignment of 3 different events i went to and how and why I thought they reflected my own personal belief of identity. I wrote about going to WGW, shopping in Camden and Torture Garden *grin*

It's all about recognition of an "underground subculture". Such as those who can recognise those of a smiliar religion (by the wearing of crosses, hajib, etc) or by clothing (chav, metaller, goth, etc) it is the feeling of "safety in numbers" and recognition of another member of your subcultural group...

Of course, many of us subscribe to the notion of neo-tribes - where we don't fit into just one "grouping" (as was the norm in the 60/70s - you were a mod OR a rocker, not both!) but recognising those who have the necessary subcultural capital to express their identity in belonging to that group. Therefore the possibility of meeting someone with whom you feel a "connection" with for belonging to the same group (which reflects your bersonal life ethics, beliefs, view on the world, society etc)is greatly multiplied.

In other words, nice boots!

[reddragdiva]

Why yesss.

It is nice when the sociology students come around to be able to just say "If you haven't read Hodkinson, or it isn't your main reference, you will lose. See you when you have."

[cyberpunkgrrl.livejournal.com]

For my other coursework assessment on the same module I had to identify and discuss how the theme of identity was portrayed in the film Blade Runner. Which we watched in class.

:D

[reddragdiva]

Also note that as a music journalist, I'm one of those people sociologists refer to as a "primary source". That is, I get to MAKE UP SHIT OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD and HAVE IT QUOTED! It's much more fun than all that "reference" gubbins, I can tell you!

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

I don't think people can be defined as goths that easily. I hang out with a lot of goths (but not often) and I enjoy some of the music, but I also dress very differently from most goths, I dont' have the haircut, nor can I get into the Dev without much assitance! And I've never been to Slimelight. I'm just not part of the scene so I really cannot be called a goth. :-)

[reddragdiva]

I think you're mostly an annoying exception!

[commonpeople.livejournal.com]

Ha! Take that GothWorld!

[ronebofh.livejournal.com]

I'm not really a goth fancier, although i do sometimes like what they're wearing (PVC yes, fishnets maybe, velvet no). My gothdar is on just because i know a few goths and i can't turn off my senses. It's like preppiedar, except preppies don't seem to be considered a subculture even though they so totally are.

[reddragdiva]

Emphasis on "sub".

[lothie.livejournal.com]

Heh. I definitely HAVE it but I don't know why.

[reddragdiva]

Exquisite good taste, obviously.

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

Isn't the concept of 'gothdar' blatently obvious? Though I'm not sure I have it, as I wouldn't know if someone was goth or not unless they were dressed up for it. (I mean, the woman at Euston in red and pink falls and all pvc clothes and ridiculous platform boots had to be so obviously goth anyone would spot it, right?)

Also am entirely unsure I count as goth because a large part of the cultural identity seems to be based on music I'm not sure I've ever heard or would claim to like. (I don't really think MCR count as goth, however they dress.)

[reddragdiva]

You'll just have to be a non-goth fantastically well disguised. Feb 10th free? Good ;-)

[mr-e-cat.livejournal.com]

I find my 'gothdar' is sometimes confused by 'people who still live in the 80's' as well as 'ex-punks'

[deeply-spurious.livejournal.com]

Sorry missed this - have not been keeping up with lj much lately... I like your stages of gothdom, though not sure about the order - often people seem to go into the denial/anger stage after they've been involved for a while... in order to try to differentiate themsevles or something.

Btw I put a comment on the Wikipedia goth definition thing (only about 18 months after you suggested I look at it). Basically I said that it was way too narrow - but can't be bothered to argue it out to be honest!

[reddragdiva]

I'm tempted to add that to Wikipedia with a reference to the above comment: "Even sociologists whose specialist expertise includes the goth subculture have trouble defining the subculture concisely and conclusively ..."

[deeply-spurious.livejournal.com]

Actually I believe I could define it reasonably well - and arguably did ;P - but the problem is that goth types always want to use things like Wiki entries as a means to fight their own parochial battles and the result is that you get definitions that draw massive attention to rather unhelpful distinctions of little use to the general reader... The example of saying categorically that NIN are not goth (and I don't care how it is worded) is a good one... it just isn't remotely helpful to anyone (except people fighting rather silly battles within the goth scene that is). Indeed arguably it is both confusing and misleading. But as I say, I don't have the time or energy for such arguments unfortunately.

[reddragdiva]

Yeah. I've tried NPOVing the entry from time to time, but it's a losing battle.

You think that one's bad, try the Linux entry. Leaves Israel-Palestine in the dust for bad advocacy ...