Fucking magnets! How do they work?

[reddragdiva]

So our washing machine (Hotpoint: The Finest Of British Attention To The Wrong Detail) just let out a couple of really loud electrical BANG noises and stopped working, blowing both its own plug fuse and the extension cord's plug fuse (both 13 amps — it's always fun when a mains-powered electric motor shits itself). So I go pottering around the Comet website to ascertain the lay of the land. And what do I see? They offer this piece of physics-defying woo with every machine. In fact, they preselect it on all order forms.

So, I'm faced with a difficult shopping choice: Advertising Standards Authority, Office of Fair Trading or both? And have any before me in the UK taken Fucking Magnet Miracles to said bodies that you know of?

(Please forward this question to UK sceptics of your acquaintance. More complaints are probably better too.)

Oh yeah, and we have to buy a new washing machine. Washer-dryer combo is dictated by space, sadly. Nothing from the Hotpoint Group will be considered, and I'm unlikely to buy the actual device from Comet barring a price miracle, but any recommendations other than that? Presently it's looking like at least £400 for something that isn't shit.

Update: Holy crap: magnetic descaling does not defy physics. Gosh. (Just engineering.)

Comments

[tisiphone]

Well, if by "limescale" you actually mean "rust", this could work. I'm pretty sure calcium isn't magnetic though...

[reddragdiva]

They quite definitely intend it for limescale. (Is there evidence it even works for rust?) They even push it as excellent for "hard water areas", i.e. limescale (London water is so hard it's crunchy). No two ways about it, this is blatant pseudoscience and they have no excuse not to know better.

[tisiphone]

I doubt there's any evidence it works for either limescale or rust. It just might be more likely to work for rust, given that iron can actually be magnetized.

(You might like to know who I am.... /lj/ladykathryn)

[vampwillow]

"London water is so hard it's crunchy"

Yup. One reason I prefer it ;-)

[reddragdiva]

Tea with crunchy bits, however, is vile.

[urocyon]

Agreed on the pseudoscience. And this is an automatically selected "feature"? *facepalm*

We had one washing machine pump conk out after about a year, presumably from limescale buildup. (Suspect it got wedged with a dislodged chunk.) I was running an empty 90° cycle with vinegar or citric acid periodically, but apparently not often enough. So now I'm verging on paranoid with the new machine, and making sure to do that weekly.

I grew up on limestone karst, and am still amazed at the liquid chalk coming out of the tap here.

Good luck finding a new machine! Excellent point from hairyears, about the filter trap. Expecially given the scary chunks of dislodged limescale I was pulling out of there before (not to mention mats of cat hair). Neither the quickly-dying machine nor the one we've got now has a user-cleanable filter, and I'm just waiting for unfortunate things to happen with that. Another useful thing? A user-accessible and -cleanable pump impeller. Can't help on which models might have both, unfortunately.

[hairyears]

Don't buy any washer with a filter trap that's a qualified-technician-only job.

Clogged filters are a forseeable event and you need to be able to deal with this without the need for special tools - and without invalidating the warranty.

[reddragdiva]

Which brands are and aren't?

(Hotpoint are apparently not bad in this regard. That is, their machines are clunkers, but if you're prepared to get out a spanner the machines suit that.)

[hairyears]

My Hotpoint isn't user-serviceable when the filter clogs: that's a yearly callout - I'm 'insured' for it with a service contract that I'm very careful to renew, but a lost day is worth more than the machine.

Many Zanussis share this disagreeable 'feature'.

[reddragdiva]

Yuh. Zanussi are better-made, but you'll pay for service.

I suspect I seek the Holy Grail of washer-dryers, and that time will catch up with me first. I need to make a purchase rather sooner than later. Bah.

[(Anonymous)]

They offer this piece of physics-defying woo

You use this word, I do not think you know what it means. :-)

Collection of research links

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/descal.html

[reddragdiva]

O rly? That's actually interesting. I must say, "The sales success of these devices would seem to indicate that some work as promoted, at least under some circumstances." does not give me the greatest of faith in their work, though.

[(Anonymous)]

Are you looking at the page I'm looking at. The one where they quote the papers where people run the tests in labs and publish the results in peer reviewed journals? Kind of like.... you know... science.

You see, I think when you dismiss the science because you don't like the phrasing of one sentence on the page, that's not scepticism, that's just sticking to your point whatever. The fact that electric and magentic fields can influence limescale build up seems to be well established in the literature. I mean obviously the experimenters in question didn't know that someone had once used a phrase you don't like to describe it. I'm sure they'd rerun the experiments in the light of that.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w557713h21542321/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TFH-4WM74W8-1&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F2009&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d2fe12d1078de95bfbeff139cd846dac
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V73-4JVTBM7-2&_user=10&_coverDate=06%2F30%2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1424733424&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=eafd5eb040a03180b60c39da500f73bb

[reddragdiva]

I meant that I had never heard of the effect you link, so I might actually be wr-, wr-, wroooo-, you know, that word. I was wondering at the direct applicability to a particular device (with awful reviews) or class of devices, given the author says "they sell well so they must work," which of course does not in any way follow.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh absolutely true -- cannot vouch for device as you say. It does, however, appear to be founded on correct science. When I read your tweet I thought "how the fuck would that work then" hence I went to find out. Could be that they've designed a non functional device based on correct physical principles (for example the magnet is not strong enough or the flow rate too great or the frequency is wrong). Some of the cited material in journals refers to industrial applications where it is used and does give measureable reductions. Clearly such a device could be built but whether the sold gadget is one is another matter. If I were a betting man I would bet that it does work (at least to some extent). The timescale of initial research in 90s, industrial application a few years back... it just feels right.

[(Anonymous)]

You do realize that none of those are refereed peer-reviewed journals? In other words, junk science to support junk devices.

[(Anonymous)]

By the way, not trying to claim that this particular device you link to works. Maybe yes, maybe no. The science of removing/reducing limescale build up with magnetic and electric fields does seem to be either well-established or an incredibly convincing fraud with well-cited papers in a number of journals by reputable academic publishers.

[reddragdiva]

Now if you'd tried to claim that Hotpoint make machines that aren't fundamentally crappy, that would require large-scale academic fraud to support.

[redcountess]

To be fair, nothing's built to last these days and it's done hard yakka for nearly three years in a very damp environment!

Have a look at whitebox.co.uk, where I bought that from, they have a handy comparison tool, good policies etc. (And don't just sell Hotpoint)

[rbarclay]

Have a look if there's any "b-quality" dealers around your place - hereabouts meaning they sell stuff that's "not good enough" for the big chains - dents&scratches from loading, slightly off-colour etc. Shaves off about 1/3 to 1/2 of the price, and for white goods (household appliances) that's (IMHO) perfectly fine.

Also, "Eurotech", they just rebadge known-brand appliances - slip your local dealer a fiver or something, and they magically know which brand/model is underneath. As long as you don't need spare parts for DIY repairs 7 years down the road ...

[thefon.net]

I usually check out "Which?" magazine before buying stuff.
I bought a Zanussi washer/dryer about a year ago, it had the best price/performance, and reasonably green/low-cost.
So far so good, quite happy with it. A bit noisy but close the kitchen doors and it's fine.
Bought it from Dixons, I think, with cheap delivery & install. Around £300 I think.

[thefon.net]

Welcome to drop around and see it in use, if you feel so keen.