Neuro-Linguistic Programming: Does it do anything?

[reddragdiva]

... No.

The theory doesn't hold, so if you want to build further theory on it you're out of luck. (Wikipedia summarises the problems pretty well: the models are provably incorrect, it appears oddly hard to teach and communicate, and advocates even try claiming science is inadequate to analysing it.)

The master hack for getting people to do what you want is confidence: simply, to confidently tell them to do what you want. NLP works insofar as having a theory at all, even an erroneous one, increases your confidence. And what NLP actually sells is getting people to do what you want. So NLP delivers what it's selling. Sort of.

(I said "simple," not "easy." But that is the actual answer.)

Many other such marketed mental hacks work the same way, including ones that sell themselves as therapies rather than control techniques. They pretty much all work by applied confidence. Some with an admixture of exploiting cognitive biases.

If you don't buy that and think I'm just mired in pseudosceptic negativity, you could always try using NLP for weight loss, psoriasis or to cure cancer.

Comments

[reddragdiva]

Oh Ghod.

[quiet000001]

... HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAAHHAAHAHAHHAHAAH.

Oh, I am SO not surprised at ALL.

(The Parelli system is, apparently, based, amongst other things, on a horse having a 'horsenality' where he's right brained or left brained and introverted and extroverted or something like that - and then there are lots of bizarre 'games' you play that are supposed to help the horse develop other parts of his 'horsenality' or get him to trust you... I'm not sure of the details because honestly I don't have the stomach to watch any of the crap they do because it all boils down to horses who look confused and miserable to me.)

(Except for the ones who have been purchased by middle-aged timid ladies who get into Parelli because they think it'll help the horse love them more, and it gives them an excuse to never actually ride. THOSE horses generally look like they're having a grand old time because they do, like, NO work at all, basically, and hang around and get fed treats and if they don't want to do something they just make a nasty face and their owner comes up with some Parellified reason why it must not be the right time to have a bath/pick out hooves/whatever. I'm pretty sure THOSE horses are reasonably content, at least as long as they don't get sold on to someone who won't put up with that crap and has to spend considerable amounts of time on retraining.)

Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[mouseworks]

I suspect that some of the problem with various cults of horsemanship is that people are buying horses as status items and expecting to be able to find expert advice in how to deal with their status symbols, like learning how to drive a car. Prior to the early 20th Century in most of the US and the UK, a horse was something kids learned how to ride as part of learning the skills necessary to do adult work. The kinds of horses we have now, the elegant, showy horses, wouldn't have been what most people worked with. The average transportation horse was like the local daily use horses here -- 15 hands or under, probably gaited so it was smooth to ride(my grandfather wouldn't have a horse or mule that didn't "single foot" (another name for amble, stepping pace, paso, Icelandic horse gaits, etc.). It didn't kick, bite, or freak out over blowing leaves.

The people with money buying horses today aren't buying small, easy going, smooth gaited horses without a whole lot of collection -- they buying flashy fast horses that can jump or which are gaited with high leg action. The old school people who used to race thoroughbreds or show five gaited horses had someone else, generally trained from childhood as a groom or jockey, ride the things for performance. Mounted hunting, falconry, and combat were the exceptions, and I wonder how much hunting prior to the Enclosure Acts involved jumping.

So, modern adults who want horses buy what they can afford that looks romantic, big, and flashy, and are often in way over their heads. They might have been happier learning to ride on an old calm generic riding horse, or even a mule, but that isn't the image they have of themselves on horseback. They also buy into the idea that they can hire experts to transfer that expertise to them in intellectual ways.

Good horsemanship is a combination of muscle memory and having ridden enough to have considerable empathy with horses, to be able to read the tensions and relaxations in the horse's body, and to have developed a reasonable level of confidence in handling horses in general, plus being sure that you have the right basically to be on top of the horse (confidence, which is a good mental hack in many situations with a range of species).

I don't remember any of horse whispering from my kiddie days of being a horse mad girl -- and I read quite a bit. Lessons involved actually being on top of a school horse and getting my posture corrected. The prevailing idea then was that until a rider learned how to ride reasonably well, on a range of horses, training a horse was not something the novice needed to think about and might never need to think about. Learning to ride well took several years, often on horses that were not exciting to ride for at least the first year. I suspect this was because people were closer to actual using horses in the 1950s and 1960s than they are now. Exciting horses are fun to watch, probably fun for some riders to ride, but nobody rides them into town to do shopping here. The local horsemen who use horses on a daily basis ride the little Spanish horses that don't flinch over buses, motorcycles, trucks, or brass band parades.

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[quiet000001]

Well, to be fair, there are still people who do it Right. Although I will never understand riding stables where all of the lesson horses are basically push-button perfect. Where I learned to ride, the horses were safe - as safe as horses get, anyway - for the level they were used for, but they still had personality quirks and bad habits, and honestly I think that makes for BETTER riders because unless you can afford to pay for a trainer to keep your horse tuned up for you all the time - which some people can - then if you do get your own horse, you're gonna have to deal with the occasional minor issue, and know enough to know when to say 'this is something I need to get professional help with.'

The really big market for Parelli types seems to be women who were horse mad as kids, but didn't necessarily get to take lessons (or didn't take GOOD lessons where horsemanship was part of what you learned) and now that they're middle-aged or a bit older (kids are off to college) they have the money and the time to buy a horse. But rather than buying Old Dobbin (who they SHOULD be getting) they do tend to go for either the status symbol horse (expensive something-or-other) or the pretty 'dream' horse and then they're not ready to ride the thing. (And most horses will totally take advantage if they know you're intimidated.)

So Parelli type rubbish gives them an excuse to not ride, and to stay on the ground and play 'games' and if they get intimidated to put the horse back on the grounds of it not being in the right mindset or something rather than having to admit they're afraid.

To be honest, there is nothing wrong with having a horse you don't ride - my mom loves horses but she has mobility issues so the chances of her learning to ride are basically non-existent, but when she retires she's been talking about maybe getting a place where she has some land so she can keep a horse or two (one for me!) because she enjoys them. I have no issue with that - there are certainly horses out there who are pasture sound but not sound for riding who'd love a good home, or horses who need some extended time off to recover from an injury.

My issue is that the stupid Parelli-and-related crap a) provides lots of chances for horses to learn bad habits about avoiding work and b) tends to teach horses to do things that are contrary to the standard way people expect horses to behave. I know lots of people who are in the business of retraining horses (off the track race horses, for example) who will RUN the other way if they're told a horse has been Parellified, because it's just so much work to retrain the thing so that it behaves sensibly. So basically Parelli has set up a system that encourages/supports people in buying too much horse for what they can sensibly handle, and then proceeds to turn those horses into training nightmares that a lot of professionals don't want to deal with, which is seriously bad news for the horse if it needs to be sold on somewhere down the line.

(I am personally of the opinion that even if you think you're going to keep a horse the rest of his life, you should do what you can to keep him as appealing as possible to the sale market - not necessarily for big bucks, because some people do want a horse for casual riding, they don't all need to be superstars - because you simply never know what will happen in the future. Horses are expensive and, for most people, they're luxury items. Sometimes shit happens and you just can't afford the costs anymore - at which point the better prepared your horse is for the sale market, the more likely he is to land in a good home instead of someplace crummy.)

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[quiet000001]

To add - I will also allow that Parelli is not the only area where this ridiculousness of women over-buying horses happens. You see it in dressage barns all the time, too - women who have the money suddenly who buy $$$$$+ imported or extremely well-bred horses and then dump more money into fancy tack, but can't ride the darn things. (Particularly an issue with the tendency towards breeding dressage horses in particular to be BIG - 15 hands would be considered tiny. So you have a big, often young, powerful, athletic, big-striding horse and a rider who is either a novice or a long way from her days of regular riding. This is not a fantastic combination. Add in trainers who will say what people want to hear because they want to keep clients, and you have a recipe for a mess and, once again, horses with bad habits.)

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[mouseworks]

It's generally the same thing, self image over horse sense :).

What we have equivalent here are large, gaited Paso Finos, some Andalusians, and some big Arab-looking horses for horse parades. Watching those is exciting, but the riders aren't having anything remotely like a relaxed experience with the horses. Nobody who rides for transportation would bother to own one, but I wouldn't be surprised if some rich Nicaraguans also don't get into more horse than they can manage for much the same reasons. And it's not just women. I think this will make you smile.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1975143308180&set=a.1975153388432.2120135.1530998076&type=1&theater

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[mouseworks]

I think we're in agreement about the people buying too much horse in middle age for reasons of status :). And I don't have any problems with keeping anything as pets (my neighbor has hens that don't lay and a rooster in our shared back yard and I feed them scraps).

I may or may not have taught the mule I rode how to neck rein -- if she hadn't been taught before, I did. Or I refreshed her memory (her primary function was in front of plows). I got the impression I was the first rider of a plow horse that got a slow canter out of her -- and she seemed to have actually been pleased that she'd figure out what I wanted. But these level things don't require huge amounts of intellectualizing, which I suspect was my grandfather's point about not being able to break a horse to a book.

Trying to do figure eights on an ex-barrel racing pony teaches something about persistence of earlier training (he did the barrel racing zigzags without the barrels because that's what those aids meant to him), and learning how to get a canter out of a horse that mistrusts your balance is also something that teaches you why balance is important.

Makes sense to teach a horse the system that most of the people in the regional riding community use. Not much market for hunters trained to snaffle bits in Nicaragua; probably almost no market for horses trained to hackamores and neck reining in Fairfax County, Virginia. Even if you don't have to sell a horse, you may need to have someone else ride it.

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[quiet000001]

The thing is, most horses trained to fairly standard methods (direct rein, neck reining, English v Western type stuff mostly) actually make the transition fairly well from one style to another because the basics of horsemanship are the same - have manners on the ground, behave while being led, that sort of thing - so while there might be small regional differences, overall it's stuff that the horse and the horse's new trainer can easily take into consideration.

"Natural Horsemanship" and particularly Parelli with the games can introduce behaviors which are completely at odds with what the majority of horse folks would expect when handling a horse. So rather than having to tweak small things or introduce a new bit, you have to figure out how to UNTRAIN all the silliness before you can make progress, and some horses just get mentally fried from the games (because they can't figure out the point to them) and you end up with a big old mess. It's like going out of your way to make your horse difficult to manage for the general horse-buying public. (And you will see a lot of ads that say "selling to Parelli home only" or things along those lines, and likewise run into a lot of trainers who will just refuse to touch a Parelli'd horse because it's too much of a headache.)

Re: Nicaraguans appear to ride from babyhood

[mouseworks]

So what Parelli is selling is "You too can train a green horse even if you have no experience by following these guide lines" which he couldn't sell to anyone who actually had enough experience with horses to be competent to work with a green horse.

What made horses valuable to the old school farmers was the work they did together with the animals. I suspect the horses and mules had a better sense of being valued because of that work than they'd have gotten from Seven Games. People talked about animals who put in the extra effort, who had heart, who learned how to lift a wagon out of mud by pulling up against the collar. If the work mattered to the man, I suspect the animals responded to that. Perhaps that's why the pony who refused to carry riders would happily pull logs without a driver and go back to get another one. The work mattered to the people, so made sense to the pony. They didn't need to ride him; they had a truck.

Someone somewhere pointed out that a lot of the games and retreats and stuff that corporations do was basically disrespectful of their employees, treated them far more as tools to be managed than if they would have if they'd simply assigned meaningful tasks that contributed to the bottom line of the company, and left people alone in their free time and hadn't tried making work a total institution (see Goffman for discussions of total institutions, but the basic ones are monasteries, insane asylums, and prisons). This crap seems basically condescending, too, treating all humans as automatic executives/herd leaders and all horses as things to be managed based on some stereotypes. Green riders learn from old wise horses. Green officers who don't want to be fragged learn from older enlisted men.

Cultures that treat employment as a total institution seem to have more, not fewer, problems with work ethics. The best workers here work for themselves to avoid the workers as family crap.