What do people think about computers?

[reddragdiva]

I was reminded today of a short Perl course I did a few years ago. (And remember nothing of, of course.) It was Perl for web developers, and there was space for a couple of sysadmins.

Web developers work with programming languages. They cut and paste JavaScript and fiddle with it to get stuff working nicely on a screen. And, y'know, JavaScript is a pretty capable language if you care about that sort of thing.

One webdev achieved enlightenment. Her eyes lit up as she grasped the nature of Turing completeness, and the power of just giving a machine a set of precise worked-out instructions. "But you could write a program to do ... anything!" Yes. Yes, you could.

This person had shuffled around JavaScript for a living. She did not understand until that moment that computers would do whatever stuff you told them. That this was what she had been doing all this time.

With computers basically taking over civilisation, this leads me to wonder: what the hell do normal people think computers actually do, and how the hell do they think they do it? Normal people, I want you weighing in on this.

Comments

[rone]

You don't know any normal people.

[quiet000001]

This was pretty much my first thought, too.

[andrewhickey.info]

If you're aiming at those who don't know what Turing completeness is, you might want to point out that smartphones, iPads, iPods, Kindles and so on are all computers (albeit deliberately crippled ones).

[hrafn]

Other than a very limited grasp of html, I am not a programmer or anything, though I took a couple "computer science" classes in high school (20ish years ago). I do not know what Turing completeness is.

I'm appalled that this webdev, who theoretically has more technical knowledge than I do, has less understanding of what computers can do than I do.

[reddragdiva]

The Wikipedia entry is somewhat obscurantist (and it was worse before I rewrote it). I mean that it can in principle do whatever you tell it to, eventually. Everything about the modern world follows from this.

[(Anonymous)]

s/tell it to/tell it how to do/

mikea@mikea.ath.cx
Tired old sysadmin

[fluffymormegil]

"Turing complete" = "can in principle calculate anything that it is possible to calculate".

[gths]

I know enough about programming to know that I'm terrible at it. No patience with bugs, no organisation. At least I've learnt enough Python to write spaghetti code that manages to do most of what I want it to do.

Oh, you wanted normal people.

[rufus]

I echo the "you don't know any normal people."

I think.

If what you mean by "normal" is "doesn't understand the basics of computer networks and the possible functions of code."

Because I can only write very basic HTML, I know the computers do what you tell them to do, they have a very wide literal streak, and really, where there is a programmer with a will, there is a way.

[ihcoyc]

I'm at the point where I expect transparency from my computers. I only get annoyed at them when they remind me that they are computers: when a connection goes bad, or when I'm getting frogmarched into a software update. Ideally, I'm more in tune with what I'm writing, drawing, or playing when I am at a computer, so that I am using a computer now is backgrounded.

[rosefox]

In my experience, they have absolutely no idea.

My mother: I emailed you the file to print for me.
My mother's partner: I don't see it on my desktop.
My mother: You have to download it to the desktop before you can see it. It won't go there automatically.
Me (not out loud): This entire problem could be solved with a USB switch so my mother can connect her laptop to the printer and print her own files. This solution will never, ever occur to them.

[thekumquat]

I'm possibly as close to normal as your flist gets...

IME computers nowadays are appliances: they come with various functions and are like modern cars in that its very hard to actually do anything under the bonnet. Making a computer now do something new is to me like getting your microwave or washing machine to to run a new program; they're just not meant for typical users to do that, only mechanics.

And I used to have a BBC micro and program it, but on a modern PC not only don't I know where to start but I don't understand people trying to explain.

[reddragdiva]

Even BBC Micro thirty years ago is good. You understand that they are not in fact magic, which is more than almost anyone.

[thekumquat]

They aren't magic, but equally they aren't things that will do what I tell them any more, because the system is so locked down - like our car which has a warning light on permanently, because the only way to turn it off is to have the car serviced by a dealer with the licenced software, rather than the competent cheap guy round the corner. Actually the recommended method is to take the bulb out, but that requires a bunch of specialist tools too.

Basically most home computers are now things that are made and programmed in a factory and not for home programming. Which is a crying shame.

[(Anonymous)]

No they're not! Anyone with a willingness to learn can knock up (very) simple programs in a few hours, and somewhat complex ones within a few months of starting. You need no licensing or anything like that; an online guide or a book such as http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microsoft-Visual-Basic-2010-Package/product-reviews/0735626693/ref=sr_1_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 and you're on your way!

The major operating systems can in no way be described as locked down. You need no special equipment and all the (needed) software is free, so if you think you'd be interested have a look for an online guide.

[andrewhickey.info]

Windows, at least, though, doesn't come with a built-in programming language the way old microcomputers used to -- you have to download additional software, like the VB IDE or something similar. Which means you need to know where to look for that software. Which means you need to know *how* to look for that software, and that that software exists. Which means you need a conception of a computer as something programmable. There are a large number of steps, both conceptual and in terms of actions that need to be taken, between owning a computer and programming it.

Those steps did not exist at all in the 1980s. If you owned a BBC Micro, Acorn Electron or similar machine, you started it up and it dropped you straight into a BASIC prompt. The computers came with books that taught you how to write simple programs in BASIC, and which had listings for simple Pac-Man type games and the like.

[thekumquat]

I'll have a look, thanks - the last time I looked into it was just as Javascript and personal websites were getting trendy and it transpired I would need to buy Visual Basic for about £300 and install an 'operating environment' and I didn't have the cash or the time. But that was getting on for 10 years ago now...

[reddragdiva]

Programming on Windows has a certain infuriating aspect to it. For BASIC-style messing about there's Python, which runs nicely on Windows.

[andrewhickey.info]

If you're actually interested in having your computer do what you tell it, you might want to try installing GNU/Linux on it. I'm not one of those evangelists who see it as the solution to every problem, but unlike Windows GNU/Linux machines make it very easy to program (they all come with a variety of programming languages pre-installed, like Perl, Python, Bash and so on, and you can install more very easily), and because GNU/Linux is Free Software (you can read and modify all the code if you want to) you can rewrite the entire operating system if you wish, to have it behave *exactly* as you want. (Or you can just stick with the defaults).

Fixing a broken GNU/Linux system also rarely or never requires any professional assistance -- a quick Google pretty much always brings the answer, and ninety-nine times out of a hundred you can fix it by editing a plain text file.

It genuinely sounds to me like it might be worth your while at least trying GNU/Linux. Debian (http://debian.org ) is the version that to my mind best balances programmability with usability. But all versions ( "distros") of GNU/Linux are fundamentally for people who want their computer to do what they tell it rather than what someone else thinks is best for them.

[thekumquat]

I have a Mythbox running Debian downstairs. It cocks up at least twice a week with useless error messages that takes my partner (a professional programmer) hours to resolve, and there's options that aren't resolvable in any sensible timescale - obviously he could sit and rewrite half of Myth every time an upgrade doesn't work properly but that rather defeats the point of provided software!

What I want is an easy-use device with loads of functional software available, so the bog-standard Windows PC or Android phone generally meets those reqs, but ideally a way to get under the bonnet if I really want - which I think is feasible with Android? Must try it sometime...

[reddragdiva]

Ubuntu is what I do to this end - it does what I want in a web-browsing appliance manner and I can fiddle with it if I want, but mostly it doesn't annoy me very much, and that's fantastic. arkady uses it too and does not fix it for a living and has no trouble. The older teen got Ubuntu on her netbook (after the second virus) and puts up with it not being actual MSN Messenger, and has little trouble other than that.

Packaged software for work is a faff in that context, as it's all Windows. Most of it works in Wine (a Windows compatibility layer for Linux), but it's a bit of a dancing bear. That said, there are good Linux equivalents for most general things - it's just specialist software that's a pain.

MythTV is for people with rather too much time on their hands, yes.

[andrewhickey.info]

Fair enough -- I've never used Mythbox, so I don't know why that would be happening. I do know that I've never had a problem running Debian on bog-standard PC hardware, but if it's been causing you problems then you probably don't want to do any more with it.

[marahmarie]

I'm not sure I understand. A computer is a computer is a computer, methinks? Mine is 10 years old (or maybe older, but at least that old) and I've torn out nearly everything but the motherboard and replaced it at some point or another. So "Making a computer now do something new is to me like getting your microwave or washing machine to to run a new program" is unfortunately going over my head (since I assume newer models work about the same way with the same, just more powerful, stuff under the hood). Then again, by my own lights, I'm not normal, either. I know HTML and CSS and can copy/paste/edit/destroy some JS now and then and tear my computer's insides out with sure delight when a problem arises; but I do know computers do whatever you tell them to and in a software sense, that that's through the code you feed them.

Unless you're referring more to iPhones, iPods, Androids, netbooks/laptops, etc. (I guess that all does get a little more complicated, but that's due to the tightness of the space with everything being jammed in there, the fact that you need to be much more careful because there's less room for error, etc). From a software angle anything from Apple (especially anything smaller than a laptop) is so locked down that getting in is half the battle, so in that sense, yeah, maybe more like a microwave. I don't know much about Android but imagine it's closer to a programmer's wishes in most senses than anything Apple-related (less like a microwave). But I wouldn't want to use a simple data collector from Google (which is all anything Android really is) just to be able to tell myself 'take that Apple, I can program this myself!'.

[thekumquat]

If you've torn out your motherboard, you've invalidated your warranty on your computer (if you did what most people do and bought a computer in a box from a shop in the first place; given you're on Diva's flist I expect you built it from bits, which is a totally different scenario!)

Similarly if you've taken your washing machine apart - it's not that it's not possible or even that difficult, but it's seen by most people as a job for a mechanic and the manufacturers encourage that belief, and I think that's where we're at with most people and computers (as you say is the case with Apple, laptops, etc) - I know some HTML, I've even been paid as a programmer to program Rexx, Netview and some MVS mainframe stuff, but like my car and kitchen appliances, computers have got to the stage where there's a huge learning curve to get to the stage where you can even try to program them yourself - it's not just '1. fart-beep 2. type 10 Print "Hello World" 3. Run' any more. If you need to understand concepts of drivers, distros, libraries, installation conflicts, etc, before you can even start to do useful programming, 99% of the population will never get it.

And don't get me started on 'computer' classes where kids learn how to draw a shape or create a menu in an isolated piece of software, but then can never apply that to the computers they own.

[(Anonymous)]

99% of the population will never get it.

99% of people in the world never got it, period, and they never will. And no one should really care. Not everyone's meant to program, and not being able to doesn't make anyone 1) stupid, 2) wrong for not knowing how, or 3) wrong for not wanting to know how (most people don't, fact of life - they think they're already way 'geeky' if like, wow, they can get on FB from their phones). All that's happened between '1. fart-beep 2. type 10 Print "Hello World" 3. Run' and now is people who do know how to program made it a little more complex for those who don't, and the tradeoff is people who didn't know how or didn't want to learn how to program in the first place now have to scale a few more walls if they ever will learn. Let them. Fart/beep/print/"Hello World"/Run was great when I was 12 (which was about when fart/beep/print/run was just becoming popular), but I wouldn't go back to that for all the money in the world. I'd rather scale the walls and let others who really want to learn do the same.

But maybe that's just me - I almost always like shit better when it's complicated.

[marahmarie]

^ that was me, btw, forgetting to login

[theoda]

That story's a little disturbing. It's like a speech therapist saying "if you speak to someone, they will know what you're saying".

Well anyway, computers are magic boxes for moving pretty, bright pictures and words around on a screen and then print it out, and if you are a little clever and do stuff on Facebook then other people can see your words and pictures too. Sometimes, if you are very clever and nerdy, you can get computers to give you the answers to maths problems. Kids and fat unemployed adults play games on them.

Adventurous people know how to feed it money and get things delivered to their door but it is dangerous because there are cats and trolls and Guy Fawkes all living in the intertubes trying to steal the money.

Also, Wikipedia and Wikileaks.

[reddragdiva]

Also, you can get laid. That's when I knew the Internet was a sufficiently developed technology.

[theoda]

Yes. If the gossip of my Perth in-laws is anything to go by, random sex is what RSVP is for.

[ideological_cuddle]

I am as you know not even remotely normal in this respect.

However most of the people I interact with on an average day are, including all of my colleagues.

Who, despite being web/human-factors people, are routinely amazed by the stuff I can pull out of a web site with a simple one-liner. Their expectation is that while you can probably get a computer to do most things, it requires deep voodoo and many months of work.

Except, of course, when they think it's simple and it really isn't. ;->

[reddragdiva]

Yeah ... I've started being careful with the magic I do at work. I stick to magic my boss will appreciate.

[theoda]

Which magic is that?

[damerell]

I think part of the problem here is the way modern machines (ahem, especially, let us say, the major consumer OS line) are sufficiently complex systems that they don't behave reliably. "Oh, if it does that, just try again." This is not suggestive of a programmable system faithfully following a series of instructions to the letter...

[reddragdiva]

Yes, Windows does successfully implement Artificial Stupidity.

Computers you say

[maxcelcat]

...actually I have to disqualify myself, being a professional nerd. In fact there are five or six computers on my desk here at home. Not to mention five spare hard drives I can see from where I'm sitting......

If these normal people to whom you refer are anything like my dad, then I could share LOTS of stories.