Help needed: key points for the polycurious.

[reddragdiva]

I have a wife and a girlfriend and I've had both for five years now, which is longer than any monogamous relationship I had before that. So people keep assuming I'm an expert in this non-monogamy thing, which is a frightening concept.

I suspect I should write a "people keep asking me about polyamory" page for the polycurious. Here's a first draft. Comments on problems welcome, let's assume there's more stuff to add and I'm undecided on whether to include a generic list of links.

I think I've got poly-incompatibility down to a single question ...

Key question: How will you feel when you see your sweetie kiss someone else? How will you feel when you hear your sweetie having sex with someone else? How will you feel when your sweetie falls for someone else (without un-falling for you, note) and just can't shut the fuck up about them?

(a) indifferent
(b) enormously pleased for them (note, that's immediate reaction not considered response)
(c) just a little torn at the heart?

(That's all the same question.)

[ (b2) Reaction: pleased for them, but would quite like them to keep it the heck down so you can sleep kthx.]

Other things to watch out for:

• If you're sure: Don't compromise. Unwillingness to embrace polyamory has to be a deal breaker. (This is easier for you to say now than it is to act on it when you're already embroiled with someone else and there's life to untangle and a cold lonely bed to go back to.)
• The emotionally unstable are as common around poly as everywhere else, but they're not taken out of general circulation by hooking up with someone else. Crazies, predators and fuckheads in general do tend to accumulate in poly communities; eventually people either realise this or there's a great social schism. Drama a go go.

Go on, pick holes. Ideas on phrasing that last point also welcomed.

(Also posted on polyamory_uk.)

Comments

[ladykathryn.livejournal.com]

I can't fault the last point, but not all of us live as uncompromisingly poly :)

[reddragdiva]

Yeah, I was wondering about that one. arkady thought it was pretty relevant, even though she too considers she could do monogamy just fine (and pretty much is with me). Perhaps "If you're sure:" on the front.

[kest]

It is in fact a fairly key question, but I think a frequently overlooked aspect of it is that sometimes you don't actually *know* how you feel until it happens. Especially that all of that may be perfectly fine with person A under circumstances X, but less than fine with person B under circumstances Y. So the question is, are you prepared to discuss that and deal with it when it happens? And sort of the other side of it, if your partner says this is ok and that is not, are you willing and able to respect that?

[reddragdiva]

Yeah. That's getting into 101 and 102 rather than 001, which this is I think. We could of course pontificate on this at great length, and it'd be worse than defining goth.

[rufus.livejournal.com]

I think it's missing something of the "I'm a polyamorous bisexual slut and I still won't sleep with *you*" variety, though maybe that's for the advanced class?

also, I think there should be a question about "are you willing to communicate fully, clearly and honestly with your lover(s) regarding your limits, desires and expectations, or do you prefer mindreading?" in there somewhere.

(NB: I am not polyamorous, and while i periodically examine my conscience on that front, it is likely that I will never choose to take that path.)

[blackavar.livejournal.com]

Of course, I'd call the communication question there a basic one for any sort of sane relationship, whether that be poly, mono, or platonic.

[secretlondon.livejournal.com]

I think I should write something deep and meaningful here but I'm not exactly sure what.

[serpentstar.livejournal.com]

I think with the Key Question, the answer has to be "it depends". I'm not convinced that every person who has the capability to be functionally polyamorous will also answer (b) to that question, at least at the start. I think that telling them they need to be able to answer (b) (which is how I'm interpreting what you're writing, though I know it's just a rough draft ATM) is potentially forcing a very narrow definition of poly on them, and (IME) a rather American, I suppose, "classical poly" approach. It's an approach that I'm more familiar with from the internet & bad TV documentaries on poly than I am from real life, admittedly, but I've never much liked it.

From my perspective, I am always going to feel just a little torn at the heart when I see or think of a lover with someone else. Life is tough; wear a helmet. Sometimes I'm going to feel enormously pleased for them AS WELL AS just a little torn at the heart; not always, though. If I ever didn't feel just a little torn at the heart, I would be fairly certain that I wasn't very in love with my lover any more; I'd take that as a bad sign.

Despite all that, I seem to have managed OK in polyamorous relationships for most of my adult life, and don't think I'm too much of an emotionally unstable, crazy, predatorial fuckhead. ;)

[reddragdiva]

Hmm, so you don't think that's a key question? Tch! How annoying. I thought I'd nailed it.

Any suggestions?

And OF COURSE you are. YUO HAEV RECENTLY PROVED IT YUO EVIL UNLOVING PRESON.

[quiet000001.livejournal.com]

I would agree with this- that's the impression that I got from the phrasing also. (That (b) is the One True Answer.)

Because I don't think that feeling somewhat upset about your partner being intimate with someone else is necessarily a poly deal-breaker- what's significantly more important in that situation is WHY you're upset. If, for example, you are upset because you fundamentally believe that everyone has only One True Love and you're trying to pretend otherwise to make your partner happy, that's a very different issue than feeling upset about it because, while you don't have any objection in fundamental concept, you're feeling fragile/having self-esteem/self-confidence issues about being replaced or something like that.

In the latter case, I think that's not an unreasonable way for someone to feel, and that it can potentially be dealt with through communication and understanding. (Maybe putting being actively poly off for a bit to work on the strength of the original relationship, making agreements about time spent, or whatever.) In the former, while I am SURE there are exceptions who will come out of the woodwork about how they're fundamentally monogamous but manage a relationship with a polyamorus partner, I think that kind of fundamental difference in belief structure about relationships is more often than not just going to lead to unresolveable problems at some point.

I also think that being poly is not necessarily a fixed thing. Neph and I were poly for a while (admittedly, mainly theoretically due to practical considerations, but we were both emotionally okay with it) but I'm not sure how interested I'd be in a poly relationship these days. (Of course, right now I'm more or less anti-romantic-relationship in general.) (For me, that is. Other people can be as romantically relationshippy as they want with other people. Unless it's in a class I'm in, or the uni library. Because these are just not appropriate places for tonsil hockey.)

[blackavar.livejournal.com]

Agreed, even while coming from a different internal place. While I personally get reactions ranging from (b) to (b+) (Reaction: enormously pleased for them and with additional more direct and personal enjoyment), I've had long-term functional poly relationships with people who were definitely reaction (c). It's not a requirement to feel immediate joy, just to care about your partner(s) feelings and your own, and to be willing to communicate and work with them.
Reaction (a) would concern me, though.

[greap.livejournal.com]

What does point a signify?

[blackavar.livejournal.com]

*points to my answer to arkady above* for my take on it.

[apiphile.livejournal.com]

All makes perfect sense to me. I breach all of them and am a perfect hypocrite and an absolute arse to have near any sort of community, but we knew that.

[illdrinn.livejournal.com]

You know me and I can't cope with poly, and I think that last point is exactly why... without it being demeaning on those who do make it work.

I'd help contribute but it would only be bitchy and cynical (completely unlike everything else around me).

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

> Crazies, predators and fuckheads in general do tend to accumulate in poly communities;

Sadly they seem to in Science Fiction Fandom too.

[reddragdiva]

They're in any suitable group of people to get attention from.

[karen2205]

I think people who are poly-curious probably need to hear something about 'why people are poly?/what you get out of being poly?' and a bit more about 'how it works in practice for different people' before going on to thinking about what makes people poly-incompatible. You can be curious and want to understand how other people's style of relationships work for them without necessarily wanting to try it yourself.

I don't get your question - it looks like all of (a) to (c) are poly-compatible answers to me, with (d) being 'storm off in jealous rage, *again*, after you've seen this happen several times and your partner has been talking with you openly for some time to get to the bottom of the reason for your jealousy'

You might be happily poly and react to seeing your partner with someone else with indifference as you're really tired and just want to sleep, you might feel a little torn at the heart while feeling pleased for them, you might be overall happy about it but want some reassurance, you might be surprised, you might not react at the time but react to it later on etc.

And yeah, you might be happily poly and not want to listen to other people having sex. That's something that'd be pretty close for a deal breaker for me.

Also note that many people tend to be not very good at predicting how they will react to a particular situation in the abstract.

there's life to untangle and a cold lonely bed to go back to.) - Agree re importance of not saying you'll be poly if it's not going to work for you, but there's no need to be critical about being single! Accepting being single every so often is a good way to not get involved with incompatible people.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

I don't feel that Diva was being critical of being single. It was a very honest comment to make; if the cosequence of flirting with poly is the break-up of a longterm relationship, that bed is going to feel cold and lonely afterwards, and I'd defy anyone who's been in a longterm relationship to say otherwise.

If you're used to sleeping alone, then of course it won't feel cold and lonely - but trust me on this: it's very hard to get used to sleeping alone when you've been used to having another warm, comforting body sleeping next to you every night.

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

It is ok to be a little jealous of your partner's partner - poly people dont have some magic way of switching that off. But they do have to live with it and cope with it.

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

I also think that some mention of "cheating" would be helpful. Poly is not "cheating".

[hazyjayne.livejournal.com]

If you you the word "sweetie", I will have to kill you.

[reddragdiva]

I'm now thinking in terms of "candy cane", "dextrose" and "liquorice allsort."

[feanelwa.livejournal.com]

I had a dream last night where I was going out with your girlfriend and we lived in a house with really good non-leaky windows. For some reason the windows were important.

I broadly agree with all that.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

My immediate response on reading this was to think "Awww! What a shame you live in Cambridge!" :-)

I would agree that non-leaky windows are most desireable; this house doesn't have double glazing so most of the windows are quite draughty. Diva often complains that my bedroom is too cold!

[ashbet]

Heh -- I'm somewhere between (b), (b2), and (c) -- depending on the circumstances. Far closer to (b) than anything else, though :)

It's entirely possible to feel a little torn while still being a happy, supportive, secure poly partner -- feeling like you have to deny that these feelings exist, or that if you're *having* them, you're not cut out for poly, is a common mistake for newbies AND people who have been poly for a long time.

I'd phrase the second-to--last bullet point thus:

If you're sure that you're poly, be very direct that this is a fundamental part of who you are. It's tempting to get involved with a monogamously-oriented person because you want to be with *them*, but you need to make it 100% clear that you are poly-oriented, and that monogamous-by-default-because-you're-not-currently-seeing-anyone-else does *not* mean that you've "come around to the idea of monogamy."

-- A <3

[axy-666.livejournal.com]

I think I've commented on this before somewhere... Personally, I really don't know how I'd feel until it happens. My other half is Bi, and leans towards woman more than men. I've no idea how I've actually hooked her.. must be doing sommat right.

This may seem a bit 'male' but I think if it was another bloke she going out with it'd take me a bit of getting used to, if it was another woman, which it most probably would be, I'd find it a lot easier.

I think it's a lot of being programmed by society and ex's. For example I kissed another woman over new year & even though my other half didn't care I still got a pang of guilt. It's just social programming for me more than anything, if I can hack away at that I think we would, and most probably will, end up poly.

[reddragdiva]

You got her 'cos you're a big girl, of course.

Yeah, take things slowly. The How To Fuck Up FAQ applies to all relationships. Think of monogamous relationships as a special case of all relationships or something?

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

i really don't think polyamory either needs or benefits from any of these "key questions" or "basic rules". it's FAR too diverse. all that all the different poly lifestyles have in common is that "you and only you" is not one of their relationship rules. and every relationship has its rules and negotiations, and they CAN change in every one. adding anything on to that just forces people to feel like relationships which make all the people in them happy are STILL somehow failures.

I am not perfect no one is

[joexnz.livejournal.com]

sorry, i'm using a safe place to rant, as it well away from the situation i have going in my life atm.

Poly should not be used in the same way childern seemed to be used, in some relationships, as away of papering over the cracks. Those married mono nonalt couples who use it as an alternative to breaking up, 'look how cool we are in our lifestyle', do not do poly any favours. They merely extend and share their own misery. Poly is a life style choice or it isn't. It isn't some thing you hide behind or play at.

I should explain, that some people i know rather ending a 15 year old marriage decided to go poly about a year ago. She had already found someone and left her husband, husband suggested poly and they agreed to give it ago. I went out with him for a few months, and he is one of the most honourable, courageous and loyal people i have had the privilege of meeting. But he wasn't for me and we finished it fairly quickly. he had absolutely miserable summer, but in the last few months he found a girlfriend and has been amazingly happy. Except wife is apparently not as comfortable with him seeing others as she had been letting on, and he has now had to be break up with his girlfriend because of this (did i mention the honourable and loyalty part, and how this sometimes involves falling on your sword) and won't be looking for anyone else. As far as i know wife gets to keep boyfriend.
Needless to say this has left a few of us extremely angry with her, not that we'll say anything and this will only make his life harder. I bite my tongue on lj aware that the bleeding i do because of it, is nothing to that of falling on your sword.

But, how would i feel if the man i loved got someone else and i was uncomfortable, would i then put him in the same situation?, currently he has no interest in other people and i imagine if he did find someone would become mono with her. Poly is something i have included him in, rather than specific choice he has made (on the whole my sex life just broadly amuses him).

now feeling confused and angry, sorry this post was way off topic, but i do think it was worth mentioning that i consider a relationship to properly poly, if both partners have the same rights. Choosing not to exercise them is a matter of personal choice, being emotionally jerked around is not acceptable in any relationship no matter how many people it includes. I also consider it to be properly poly if it is entered into as a natural progression or from the beginning, not as some kind of perverse breakup mechanism.

[cavalorn.livejournal.com]

How will you feel when your sweetie falls for someone else (without un-falling for you, note)

That's hardly a fair question when phrased like that. There is no guarantee that the state of 'not un-falling' will occur, let alone persist, so it can't be presented as a given.

If every situation of that kind automatically involved party B falling for party C without un-falling for party A, then they would be a whole lot less messy than they tend to be in practice.