I love you! Now me! I love you!

[reddragdiva]

• I have been greatly enjoying Uncyclopedia (the one with the beard from the other universe) and have greatly extended the article on Vegemite. See also air guitar, Scotland, George W. Bush, Margaret Thatcher, The Pope, Bands with only one song, RTFM, banned from the Internet, Wikipedia, LiveJournal, All Your Base Are Belong To Us.

• I recommend duranorak's new kittensounds music rant blog.

arkady's business cards have arrived and are apparently fantastic. BUY A DOLLY.

I hang out in a volatile social group of goths whose relationship spans are often measured in weeks and who play musical partners a lot. I've conspicuously had the same wife and the same girlfriend for two years. So people ask me about polyamory. (The idea that I am what passes for an expert opinion is genuinely frightening.)

In most cases I fear discouragement is probably the right answer — "You know how much work one girlfriend is? Two is ten times as much." — but I think I've got the key question: "If you see the love of your life kissing someone else and being genuinely happy to be doing so, will you be genuinely happy about it for them? If not, you probably shouldn't get into this."

Many people quite like the idea of a selection of lovers, but balk when you point out the opposite applies. The capacity for compersion/frubbliness/other-less-contrived-sounding-word is the vital thing. Not necessarily for everyone or all the time, but at all. Otherwise they won't be happy in this sort of arrangement.

Have I discovered the Polyamorist's Philosopher's Stone?

Comments

[edwards.livejournal.com]

Have I discovered the Polyamorist's Philosopher's Stone?

Nope, you're pointing out the bleedin' obvious. However, that's not to say that that sort of thing doesn't need pointing out to an astonishing number of people ;)

[greylock.livejournal.com]

"You know how much work one girlfriend is? Two is ten times as much."

I made just that point on ag some years ago, and was shouted down.

Anyway, I will steal your ideas, tap into this new craze, and pen a suspense novel called 'The David Gerard Code'.

Kindly travel back in time and paint something, would you?

[reddragdiva]

Yeah, but I'm saying it from a practical viewpoint, not a theoretical one ;-)

[duranorak.livejournal.com]

Squeak. Thank you! I feel all fluttery now. :)

~steals links~

E.
x

[pir.livejournal.com]

I've asked people how they'd feel about the love of their life having noisy sex with someone else, elsewhere in the house, before now. Just to make a really unsubtle point (I usually make fun of people afterwards if they're particularly noisy ;)

[juliet]

I think that's a bit unfair. I'm not sure I'd always be happy with a partner having noisy sex with someone else while I was in the house - although it would depend on what I was up to, I guess :-) - but am entirely happy with it going on elsewhere, & also if appropriate with hearing about it afterwards. I don't think that in itself is an issue - it's just something to take into account when arranging things.

Mind you, maybe I'm just easily embarrassed...

[pir.livejournal.com]

I can't say that I particularly like hearing it either but it's still a good thing to ask people and get them thinking about possibilities, it may well happen.

I also recommend having seperate bedrooms than with more than one wall inbetween them.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

*nods*
After all, there are plenty of reasons to be unhappy about noisy sex within earshot that have nothing whatsoever to do with jealousy: tiredness, early start the next day; embarrassment; worrying about disturbing the neighbours.

[reddragdiva]

There's a story there which I couldn't possibly tell in a public journal. But it did involve inventing an actual new perversion to get around the noise problem.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

compersion/frubbliness/other-less-contrived-sounding-word

How about selflessness?

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

isn't the idea meant to be that you don't need to be selfless, because you are happy?

[arkady.livejournal.com]

I'm thinking in terms of innate selflessness of the spirit. Jealousy stems from a selfish spirit, one that wants on some subconscious level to "own" another. A naturally selfless person will not be jealous because the idea of "owning" someone else simply wouldn't occur to them; and they would be happy for that other person simply because the other person was happy. Obviously self-enforced selflessness wouldn't work in the same way. But I think it's less clumsy-sounding than "compersion" and less ridiculous than "frubbly".

[reddragdiva]

Probably prone to misinterpretation, though.

[siani-hedgehog.livejournal.com]

fair enough. :)
frubbly is so totally foul as to convince anyone who wasn't sure to stay monogamous all on its own.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

I actually really like the word "frubbly", as it perfectly fits, for me, the "yay! bounce!" feeling of affection and excitement when I see my lover happily flirting or dating. This may not be everyone's response, but then everyone experiences other emotions in subtly different ways too.

[edwards.livejournal.com]

I suspect that if Siani saw me happily dating she'd kick me in the frubblies.

[reddragdiva]

Something more actively positive than the lack of something. Being happy for someone, but specifically being happy for your lover's happiness with someone else.

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Like Schadenfreude, only happy for their happiness instead of their misfortune. Schadenfreude literally means "damage joy"; "happiness joy" would be Glückfreude.

That the sort of thing you mean?

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Oh, and joy at another's happiness over love - "happiness love joy" - would be Glückliebefreude....

[redcountess]

Frubbliness is much easier to pronounce, despite its West Coast connotations :-)

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Hmm. As I understand it, "frubbly" was actually coined here in London, whilst "compersion" was the West Coast invention.

[valkyriekaren.livejournal.com]

Indeed, though the person who coined it is actually taking some pains to disassociate himself from it, because he thinks it's a 'silly word' and is slightly embarrassed that it's become so popular, as it was intended as a throwaway remark about what a nasty, clinical-sounding word 'compersion' is.

[reddragdiva]

GLÜCKLIEBEFREUDE FOR ALL!

[edwards.livejournal.com]

GLÜCKLIEBEFREUDE for some, small American flags for others!

[reddragdiva]

Someone needs to put "Glückliebefreude" into the VNV Lyric Generator.

("No tea! No sympathy!" - teqkiller)

[reddragdiva]

That could be perfect!

I wonder what German polyamorists call it ...

[edwards.livejournal.com]

Bonkenzemall!

[lucybond.livejournal.com]

You should have a chat with catvincent, fragiletender & malabar. They seem to be doing it pretty well, too, & for quite a few years now.

[reddragdiva]

I'm thinking of how to get the idea across to others.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Sounds like me and the quad should know these people as well :)

[alexmc.livejournal.com]

> BUY A DOLLY.

But what would I do with just the one?

[reddragdiva]

BUY ANOTHER ONE TO KEEP IT COMPANY!

[vampwillow]

"You know how much work one girlfriend is? Two is ten times as much."

:: nods :: but ten times ten times as much fun too ... ;-P


(and I can't *afford* a dolly!)

[reddragdiva]

Yes, and that's the point ;-D

[vampwillow]

problems are purely geometrical, fun is exponential

:: see me geek ::

ps. did arkady tell you about beaming me a picture from her Palm into my phone? that was fun!

"Good and Evil. There never is one without the other."

[belegdel.livejournal.com]

If that doesn't put them off, point out that being dumped twice at the same time is ten times as painful.

Just in case they think more in terms of how empty a glass is :)

[gths.livejournal.com]

Uh, I thought you were talking about Gideon Haigh's book for a sec there...

[reddragdiva]

?!

[ashbet]

I love their entry on Goths, especially the "Feeding Habits" bit ;>

>>>"You know how much work one girlfriend is? Two is ten times as much."

Gods, yes, although I do agree that it's equally worth it, most of the time ;>

>>>but I think I've got the key question: "If you see the love of your life kissing someone else and being genuinely happy to be doing so, will you be genuinely happy about it for them? If not, you probably shouldn't get into this."

Late-replying, as per usual . . .

I think the real key is slightly left of center on this one -- "Do you feel secure enough in your relationship with the love of your life that you can be genuinely happy at the thought of them falling in love with someone else?"

I'm very compersion-oriented in general (I cannot BRING myself to say "frubbly," I'm sorry), and I've been genuinely happy to see a love of mine kissing (or more!) with someone else, but what I've found is that the 'jealousy is a function of insecurity/fear of loss' trope is very true -- as long as I'm happy with my relationship and I feel like there's going to be 'enough there' for me, I have no issues at all with sharing . . . but if I'm uncertain of my lover's affections or intentions, then it causes that hurtful little heart-pang . . .

The reason I'm saying that this is a bit closer to the actual 'key' is the difference, to me, between poly and 'open relationships' -- I'm much more sensitive to the idea of my partner *loving* someone else than *sleeping with* someone else.

And, TBH, I'm perfectly happy with my partner loving someone else, as long as there's enough left for *me* -- I just think that a lot of people don't take into account the fact that polyamory is about multiple *romantic* relationships, and they get wibbly when they realize that their partner might not just be physically intimate with someone else, but *emotionally* intimate as well -- they really have to be comfortable with the idea that another person could be *just as loved* as they are.

In the end, I've pretty much figured out that I am poly, but I'm personally a lousy secondary ;P

-- A, who's a multi-primary-partner kind of girl, a situation which I'm sure you're quite familiar with *grin*

[reddragdiva]

Yeah. I'll see if I can work all that into a concise and probing question when people ask me stuff like this ;-)

[ashbet]

Er, you're right, it is a bit hard to make it concise . . . maybe something along the lines of, "Okay, you can imagine your significant other kissing someone else with comfort . . . but are you comfortable with the idea that the other person might become as important to them as you are?"

-- A, not especially coherent with this, but I think it's an important point!

[reddragdiva]

"... without dumping you, even slightly?" I think we might have it ;-D

[ashbet]

*nodnod* I believe we do!!

-- A :>

[kest]

And what's it called when it turns you on?

Also a good question: how do you feel about holding your lover while they cry bitterly over their recent breakup?

[reddragdiva]

That's perfectly normal perversion ;-)

The second question is a very good one!